The thought of a Bloggingheads musical (or at least a good theme song) has definitely crossed my mind. If only it would appeal to more people than this, it might be worth trying.

Quoting Don Zeko: I'm 3 minutes in. The DV is uninformative, but hilarious. Wonderment, do you have any thoughts about freelance predator drone strikes into the wilds of Nicaragua? Can you at least agree that it would be for a good cause? I enjoyed Reihan's singing; would it be possible for bhtv to put together a full-length musical DV? Are any of this site's commenters composers willing to work for free? I play the trombone, and would be happy to play in the pit orchestra.

A diavlog set to music would be great! Sort of an Umbrellas of Cherbourg kind of thing. Now who would have the best singing voices among the 'heads? I know that John McWhorter is a fairly accomplished musician... Re the pit orchestra: count me in on guitar, bass or slide whistle, whichever is needed. Of course, Reihan ought to know that the theme song for this DV has already been written.

Wonderment, do you have any thoughts about freelance predator drone strikes into the wilds of Nicaragua?

Nuke 'em! BTW, is this a first for song on BHTV? Possible Grammy for Reihan. It's a good thing the US Armed Forces has endless wars: jobs, jobs, jobs. (Actually, that's not true. My sources -- my daughter's bf in Afghanistan -- says there's a huge surplus of bodies now that unemployment is so high. In the good old days of 2003-2005 the military was handing out 20 and 30k sign-up and re-up bonuses.)

Quoting listener: Re the pit orchestra: count me in on guitar, bass or slide whistle, whichever is needed.

We obviously need the slide whistle. Why do you even have to ask?

Quoting Don Zeko: We obviously need the slide whistle. Why do you even have to ask?

Don't forget the zither.

Quoting Don Zeko: We obviously need the slide whistle. Why do you even have to ask?

Definitely the most nutritious of the wind instruments. ;-D

Quoting TwinSwords: Definitely the most nutritious of the wind instruments. ;-D

LOL!

Sounds great. I'll start working up some charts. And if you thought I was testy here, wait till you see me as a band director. ;-) I guess Brendan will get stuck playing the theramin or the saw (or being roadie!)

Quoting Ocean: LOL!

I love how the context-sensitive Google Ad on the video is for Ponderosa. Because what goes better with your radish slide whistle than a nice steak! :-D

Quoting TwinSwords: Definitely the most nutritious of the wind instruments. ;-D

Ah, I love Japanese music... (And Japanese food!)

Quoting uncle ebeneezer: And if you thought I was testy here, wait till you see me as a band director. ;-)

Ah, the legendary Buddy Rich! Have you heard this one?

Yeah, but when you're pretty much the greatest ever (I know, you can never pick one greatest ever but really...) I guess you can get away with a little attitude. (note on the video: from about 6:00 on...ridiculous).

Quoting uncle ebeneezer: Yeah, but when you're pretty much the greatest ever (I know, you can never pick one greatest ever but really...) I guess you can get away with a little attitude. (note on the video: from about 6:00 on...ridiculous).

I'm not a drummer, but in terms of technique and precision, Rich may indeed be unsurpassed (and the solo does get more interesting after the 6:00 mark). Beyond that, it's a matter of taste. I tend to enjoy a less bombastic approach (which Rich is quite capable of; his brushwork with small groups is amazingly subtle and swinging). Anyway, the clip reminded me of another drum solo, this one by one of Rich's spiritual fathers, Jo Jones. Oh, and that Reihan Salam, he can beat those skins, too! (Trying to stay vaguely on-topic here)

Quoting uncle ebeneezer: Yeah, but when you're pretty much the greatest ever (I know, you can never pick one greatest ever but really...) I guess you can get away with a little attitude. (note on the video: from about 6:00 on...ridiculous).

Greatest ever? You must be joking. Sure, if music was an Olympic competition, Rich might get the gold, but jazz is about art. And I'd be hard pressed to name anything of lasting artistic value Rich ever did. Roach, Blakey, Webb, Jones, Clarke, now I could tell you at length about their deep contributions to music. Rich? I am not aware he actually created anything (except a circus show). I challenge anyone to tell us what he did that changed the course of American music. He was a talented showman. For the record, Max Roach is history's greatest drummer. Buddy Rich was like Benny Goodman: a fine instrumentalist with limited musical creativity.

Quoting listener: Anyway, the clip reminded me of another drum solo, this one by one of Rich's spiritual fathers, Jo Jones.

Jo Jones changed drumming as we know it (the whole history of drumming can be traced by following the timekeeper around the drum set). And of course there wouldn't be Bird without JJ (but only a journeyman named Charlie Parker).

OR, you're right in a way. Rich's contribution was mostly on the techinical side (though he had great feel too), but what he did on the technical level was no small feet. There a many drummers I much prefer (though my list would be very different than yours) but still the bar that Buddy set was pretty amazing. He flat out did stuff that nobody had before. Though he was less an artist than others in the sense you mean and more of a bull-dog doesn't really diminish him as the gold standard of drumming (at least from a performance perspective.)

Reihan lapses into shameless cheerleader mode.

Forced out for expressing the very same views that a significant number of conservatives express regularly here in our forum. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV0ip...os=56ww6d8TKeg

I'm only ~45 minutes through this diavlog, but what about rent-consuming firms and the amounts of wealth consumed in lobbying and elections? I'm not sure I can take any talk of "small businesses" seriously when banks are too big to miss the trough and "Big" seems to be a ubiquitous sobriquet for every kind of resource firm Before I give up my "culture", I'd like to see the "Big" guy give up a little first.

Quoting listener: Anyway, the clip reminded me of another drum solo, this one by one of Rich's spiritual fathers, Jo Jones.

Boy, this guy doesn't just know what he's doing, he feels what he's doing! The other guy, meh, he plays for his ego...

Quoting TwinSwords: Forced out for expressing the very same views that a significant number of conservatives express regularly here in our forum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV0ip...os=56ww6d8TKeg

How does this relate to the diavlog? Have you decided to ramp up your trolling on behalf of the Southern Poverty Law Center?
Or are you suggesting that teaching dumb kids is a good candidate for make-work jobs?

Quoting JoeK: How does this relate to the diavlog?

I won't be able to watch the diavlog for another couple of days, maybe not until the weekend, so how it relates to the diavlog is unknown to me at this point. Hey, maybe you could do me a favor: why don't you watch the diavlog and let me know whether it relates? I'd be in your debt. Thanks so much.

Quoting JoeK: Have you decided to ramp up your trolling on behalf of the Southern Poverty Law Center? Or are you suggesting that teaching dumb kids is a good candidate for make-work jobs?

LOL! Now I'm wondering about the size of your brain, JoKe.

Annie Lowrey's notion that the regulatory burden hasn't really changed yet, so can't be an explanation for the lack of jobs creation is ignorant in the extreme: -- Many additional regulations have been implemented. The fact that they have received little publicity is part of the problem. For example, all the new regulations airline must comply with re reporting information on passengers to the TSA. There are many others. -- The regulatory burden was already quite high and their effect is to make the economy less dynamic. They make it harder for capital and labor to move to new growing sectors. This doesn't matter as much in a boom, but the effects are catastrophic where lots of new businesses (or lines of business) need to start to return people to work.

That is a wonderful clip of Jones. I wouldn't say that either drummer "feels" what they are doing any more than the other. They are two very different feels. Jones' playing is joyous and smooth and flowing, Rich's is urgent and intense and fierce. Both are equally valid sides of the musical coin. I love both approaches to musical expression. Depends on the song, the part, the night, and frankly the mood of the player. It's all somewhat elastic in my view. But I can certainly see why some people might prefer one to the other stylistically. Both Rich and Jones greatly changed the landscape of how the drumkit is played (along with Roach, Krupa, Williams, Cobham...the list is very long). I agree that Rich's ego is so huge that you can almost sense it in his playing, but it's still pretty awesome (his playing) and I often wonder how much of his ego that I see in his playing is more the fact that I'm taking information from one area (sound clips and stories of his legendary arrogance etc.) and projecting it onto his playing. That said, there's a pretty high possibility that Rich was just as much of

I really don't think that the regulatory burden is materially lowering the rate of job creation. Regulations just haven't changed for most industries since the downturn, but sales have. Lack of demand, a cause and effect of high joblessness, is the obvious cause. This does not seem controversial to me.

I don't know much about music, uncle. I wrote what I wrote because that's the way I thought about it as I was listening to each of the clips. I actually didn't like Rich's although I could hear his incredible skill in this execution. I felt it was overly done and more of a show off. But, you're right that having heard the previous clip with all the cursing may have influenced me to think about his narcissism more clearly. I'll leave this one to the experts. I can only say what I liked and what not.

Hey Ocean, tastes differ for sure, which is what makes art so wonderful. I actually find the variance between what would appeal to one person vs. another to be very interesting. It seems like such a complex psychological package that makes up our impression or experience of art. For example, how not only the sound, but even visual elements like whether a player is smiling or not, and the fluidity of their motion, all play such roles in what we experience. Anyways, that's why I usually enjoy hearing and attemting to dissect/analyze the differences. Given Listener's and OhReally's interest, I think I may just have to start a "drumming" thread! A good drummer always makes things better

Quoting uncle ebeneezer: Yeah, but when you're pretty much the greatest ever (I know, you can never pick one greatest ever but really...) I guess you can get away with a little attitude. (note on the video: from about 6:00 on...ridiculous).

Fuck. Rich was a fiercely intense player, and yet he shows more finesse and control than just about anybody you could imagine. (And I really don't think I'd have liked to have been on the wrong end of on of his tirades.)

Quoting uncle ebeneezer: ... A good drummer always makes things better

Better a bad band with a good drummer than a good band with...

Quoting uncle ebeneezer: Hey Ocean, tastes differ for sure, which is what makes art so wonderful. I actually find the variance between what would appeal to one person vs. another to be very interesting. It seems like such a complex psychological package that makes up our impression or experience of art. For example, how not only the sound, but even visual elements like whether a player is smiling or not, and the fluidity of their motion, all play such roles in what we experience. Anyways, that's why I usually enjoy hearing and attemting to dissect/analyze the differences. Given Listener's and OhReally's interest, I think I may just have to start a "drumming" thread! A good drummer always makes things better

By all means, start that thread! I just watched this terrific "Philly Joe" Jones clip that sent me over the moon, but I didn't want to further gum up the works with it on this thread. Oh, what the heck, I'm already writing this post... I'm actually not a fan of drum solos, generally speaking, but this exchange has been fun. (Of course, the only thing worse than a drum solo is...)

It took me a couple minutes to realize the title for this was not Honeymoon. I thought they got married.

Quoting listener: I'm actually not a fan of drum solos, generally speaking, but this exchange has been fun. ...)

I am no great fan either. Though to marvel at the craftsmanship alone is worth the detour. But trading fours should be all the soloing that's allowed for a drummer. Bebop is wrongly viewed as a harmonic revolution when in fact it was a rhythmic revolution, which in particular moved drumming to center stage.
Hence my Buddy Rich gripe. Buddy Rich never understood bebop. He was an swing-style Big Band drummer: not a modernist. In his Granz sessions with Bird and Diz, he ruins the show with his old-fashioned mannerisms. He had other decent sessions with Bird. But he never quite got what bebop was all about.

Quoting ohreally: ...He was an swing-style Big Band drummer: not a modernist...

That's a fair criticism. (I've never heard the stuff with Parker and Gillespie, so I have no opinion on that.) But do you know why Zappa claimed to have wanted to name his band "The Mothers?" It was more of a boast at the time (in the mid sixties), though they did live up to it eventually. Buddy Rich is the very definition of a "motherfucker," in that specific sense. Btw, it never occurred to me until you said it; but (with a few exceptions), I definitely endorse the idea that drummers "trading fours" is the best way to showcase their soloing skills.

Quoting AemJeff: Better a bad band with a good drummer than a good band with...

Not sure I agree...but there is probably some of both in this. Was disappointed to see the overrated tag saddled on Chris Frantz as the work in Burning Down the House never fails to be a catalyst for air-drummin.

I tend to like drummers trading fours or soloing over some sort of vamp. I think the interaction with the music and other instruments is usually more interesting than just a drummer going off on his own. That said I also like a good drum solo as a way for the drummer to have a chance to expand upon ideas and patterns that don't find a place in a song or the musical set. I think it comes down to being a long form chance to let the drummer express themselves in a way with no boundaries. Some guys say things that are pretty inspiring but alot don't, and basically just end up showing off their tricks. Although I really can't knock that either. To say that a solo like Rich's was just technically amazing is to discount just how important these kinds of things have been for the rest of us (drummers) for simply showing us the upper limits that a human can do on this set if skins, in addition to giving tremendous inspiration to ideas that perhaps we had not had

Quoting Whatfur: Not sure I agree...but there is probably some of both in this.

Was disappointed to see the overrated tag saddled on Chris Frantz as the work in Burning Down the House never fails to be a catalyst for air-drummin.

We agree with regard to Chris Frantz. For reasons I can't explain, I lost interest in Talking Heads after Remain In Light (nevertheless: one of the best rock albums ever, says me) - but through that effort (and including the Tom Tom Club albums) I think Chris and Tina were one of the best rock/funk rhythm sections ever.

Quoting uncle ebeneezer: I tend to like drummers trading fours or soloing over some sort of vamp. I think the interaction with the music and other instruments is usually more interesting than just a drummer going off on his own. That said I also like a good drum solo as a way for the drummer to have a chance to expand upon ideas and patterns that don't find a place in a song or the musical set. I think it comes down to being a long form chance to let the drummer express themselves in a way with no boundaries. Some guys say things that are pretty inspiring but alot don't, and basically just end up showing off their tricks. Although I really can't knock that either. To say that a solo like Rich's was just technically amazing is to discount just how important these kinds of things have been for the rest of us (drummers) for simply showing us the upper limits that a human can do on this set if skins, in addition to giving tremendous inspiration to ideas that perhaps we had not had

That ELP confession made me laugh heartily! Apologies to Reihan and Annie for turning this thread into a Modern Drummer chat board!

Annie Lowrey appears to be genuinely unaware that explicitly atheistic regimes were behind almost all of the worst instances of state sponsored mass murder in the 20th century. (Not that means atheism is wrong or that most athiest are immoral.)

Quoting uncle ebeneezer: That ELP confession made me laugh heartily! Apologies to Reihan and Annie for turning this thread into a Modern Drummer chat board!

Oh my goodness, so much great music talk in this thread! Re: Buddy Rich -- I agree, he was more of the big band school than a bop drummer, though he could fit in nicely with musicians who straddled the swing/bop divide, such as Zoot Sims. (This shows Rich in a very different light -- he takes a very tasteful solo toward the end.) And yes, the combination of Rich with Parker & Gillespie was not a good one, though the recording quality doesn't help -- it sounds like Rich is pounding away on cardboard boxes. If you want to hear the beginnings of bebop drumming, the interaction between Charlie Christian and Kenny Clarke on the live recordings from Minton's in 1941 show you exactly how it all began. Electrifying! (especially from 2:50 to the end of Christian's solo. And that is Thelonious Monk on piano) Re: drum solos -- I agree with what has been said, namely that the occasional long drum solo can be effective, but one per set (or evening) is plenty. That is one problem I have with

Quoting listener: [...] (Of course, the only thing worse than a drum solo is...)

One of my favorite jokes of all time.

Quoting AemJeff: I'm sorry to say to I've sat through more than one Carl Palmer Extended Suite in Onan sharp (and even more embarrassed to admit I've actually paid to see ELP...) - and that sort of trauma can leave your psyche damaged, needless to say.

Better ELP than ELO.

Quoting piraeus: Annie Lowrey appears to be genuinely unaware that explicitly atheistic regimes were behind almost all of the worst instances of state sponsored mass murder in the 20th century. (Not that means atheism is wrong or that most athiest are immoral.)

piraeus appears to be genuinely unaware that neither Nazi Germany nor the Soviet Union were "explicitly atheistic" except in the most superficial of ways. (Not that that means all religious people are kill-crazy murderers.)

Quoting bjkeefe: One of my favorite jokes of all time.

Quoting AemJeff: But, Jimi Hendrix, and Frank Zappa, and John Coltrane, and Rahsaan Roland Kirk were the seminal lights who led me...

Kirk was amazing!!! He could play the meanest blues I've heard.

I wasn't referring to Nazi Germany (hence, "almost all"). I'm not sure what to say to the suggestion that the Soviet Union under Stalin was not atheistic "except in the most superficial of ways." It is entirely at odds with the plain facts of history so I must misunderstand what it is you are saying.

Quoting ohreally: Kirk was amazing!!! He could play the meanest blues I've heard.

Yes. I was fortunate enough to have seen Kirk play on a number of occasions. I remember one particular time, when he said to the audience, "I heard that there are some college kids out there who think they're hot sh*t. Anybody wants to come up here and get cut, come on up." Nobody moved a muscle. The meanest blues you've ever heard (and "Hey Jude" to boot)...

Classic Miles quote. I love Zoot. His outing with Count Basie on, yes, the organ (Fats Waller taught him) is priceless. Charlie Christian would play at Minton's all night after gigging with Benny Goodman in the evening to pay the rent. That trip to Harlem was a fast-forward leap of a decade: not just the half diminished runs, but the rhythm. Listen to Kenny Clarke's right-hand time keeping on the ride while delivering his off-beat bombs. And Christian is so natural about it, popping in in mid-measure as a good bebopper would. Which reminds me of a great anecdote when Bird was playing in McShann's band in Kansas City and the bassist was trying desperately to follow him: "Just walk your bass as though the guy didn't exist!" Best definition of bebop I've ever heard.

Quoting piraeus: I wasn't referring to Nazi Germany (hence, "almost all").

That makes you a rare bird indeed among the people who trot out the tired line you did, but ... okay.

I'm not sure what to say to the suggestion that the Soviet Union under Stalin was not atheistic "except in the most superficial of ways." It is entirely at odds with the plain facts of history so I must misunderstand what it is you are saying.

Sorry. I've had this argument too many times already, and it never goes anywhere. If you want a taste, see this earlier thread, perhaps starting with this post.

Quoting Annie Lowrey: I really don't think that the regulatory burden is materially lowering the rate of job creation. Regulations just haven't changed for most industries since the downturn, but sales have. Lack of demand, a cause and effect of high joblessness, is the obvious cause. This does not seem controversial to me.

Do you accept that the existing regulatory burden might be exacerbating the rate of recovery? In normal times it's harder to see what institutional obstacles might look like, but after a shock, when all of a sudden one is faced with a surge of displaced workers, that's when a lighter regulatory burden might be desirable, no?

Thanks for the links Brendan. I'm not interested in an argument either. I only wanted to make a simple observation that Ms. Lowery was seemingly unaware that the some of the worst massacres of the 20th century were carried out by atheistic regimes. From what I can tell you don't really dispute this so much as argue that atheist aren't really atheist when they do really horrible things.

Utopians are really the ones that should be blamed for most atrocities throughout history, not atheists or some particular religious doctrine. What's it matter if you break a few (or millions...) eggs when you are doing it to create the perfect socialistic state where everyone is happy or fulfilling the covenant that will usher in your gods paradise?

Quoting piraeus: Thanks for the links Brendan. I'm not interested in an argument either.

Okay.

I only wanted to make a simple observation that Ms. Lowery was seemingly unaware ...

I haven't had a chance to watch this one yet, but based on my impression of Annie from past diavlogs and her writing, I seriously doubt she's so clueless that she is unaware of 20th century history.

... that the some of the worst massacres of the 20th century were carried out by atheistic regimes.

I'm still going to take exception to your characterization, though. Saying "atheistic regimes" is a mark of cluelessness.

From what I can tell you don't really dispute this so much as argue that atheist aren't really atheist when they do really horrible things.

No, you're wrong about that, too. That's not even close to what I'd say.

Quoting JoeK: Have you decided to ramp up your trolling on behalf of the Southern Poverty Law Center?

You know what I can't wait for? Clowns like JoeK to discover that the SPLC has classified the New Black Panther Party as a hate group, oh, for at least few years now. Gonna be hilarious to watch the flip-flopping and backpedaling when they try to use that as a reference. (h/t: Rachel Slajda)

Quoting bjkeefe: You know what I can't wait for? Clowns like JoeK to discover that the SPLC has classified the New Black Panther Party as a hate group, oh, for at least few years now.

I did not know that. How did they classify the political wing of the Black Panthers, meaning DOJ?

Doubling down on the stupid:

Quoting JoeK: I did not know that. How did they classify the political wing of the Black Panthers, meaning DOJ?

And the racism.

Quoting bjkeefe: Doubling down on the stupid:

And the racism.

Oooh, was that "DOJ" reference supposed to have been a reference to the Negro Eric Holder? Oh snap.

Quoting listener: Oooh, was that "DOJ" reference supposed to have been a reference to the Negro Eric Holder? Oh snap.

You are looking alot like a lap-dog lately. Maybe you should run for Congress.

I am a composer willing to work for free, I work for free all the time when I post here, but I might want the possibility of some kind of payment in kind for my efforts, I'm not too sure what it would be -- the chance to meet Robert Wright when I'm in NYC, which might happen in 2011, might work. Some of my compositions can be heard by visiting my blog, which one can do by clicking on my username below.

Quoting Whatfur: You are looking alot like a lap-dog lately.

Maybe you should run for Congress.

Do you believe there is an Obama DOJ policy to never prosecute a case with a white plaintiff and black defendant, as we are told is the case by the latest barrage of Republican talking points? — Why are we hearing so many stories about race right now? Must read: Adam Serwer's Almost Everything You Need To Know About The New Black Panther Party Case.
.

Quoting Unit: Do you accept that the existing regulatory burden might be exacerbating the rate of recovery? In normal times it's harder to see what institutional obstacles might look like, but after a shock, when all of a sudden one is faced with a surge of displaced workers, that's when a lighter regulatory burden might be desirable, no?

Certainly, and for most businesses, I do agree the regulatory burden should be lighter. It is just that businesses aren't clamoring to hire workers right now, full stop, because of terrible sales, gloomy outlook etc., not because they want to and cannot.

Quoting Annie Lowrey: Certainly, and for most businesses, I do agree the regulatory burden should be lighter. It is just that businesses aren't clamoring to hire workers right now, full stop, because of terrible sales, gloomy outlook etc., not because they want to and cannot.

Not necessarily true, there are businesses worried about going over the 50 worker point (2 pt = 1 ft) worker rule that Obamacare is going to bring on and not hiring because of it. There are businesses that are not expanding because of the new menu definition requirements created by the current administration. There are businesses not looking to expand because of the huge tax increase that is going to happen Jan. 1. But I guess, maybe you are correct if you want to lump these (and other things) into the "gloomy outlook" seemingly being made gloomier by the current administration.

Quoting Annie Lowrey: Certainly, and for most businesses, I do agree the regulatory burden should be lighter. It is just that businesses aren't clamoring to hire workers right now, full stop, because of terrible sales, gloomy outlook etc., not because they want to and cannot.

"businesses aren't clamoring to hire workers right now" is a bit too generic: there are about 2 millions ex-construction workers trying to decide if they should sit the storm out or change their line of work. Some employers would like to hire and some don't, one sector is hurting really bad for sure, but how would you know if the regulatory burden is helping or getting in the way? Do you talk to a lot of employers? Do you ask them this very question? Likewise with the big regulatory changes that are coming down the pipeline (especially relating to health and the environment), if you agree that entrepreneurs try to plan ahead for the long-run, then wouldn't their expectations in such matters count for something? Again, I don't know how you would empirically measure expectations. These are not simple questions. But how can you be so sure of what businesses want or cannot do?

Quoting Unit: "businesses aren't clamoring to hire workers right now" is a bit too generic: there are about 2 millions ex-construction workers trying to decide if they should sit the storm out or change their line of work. Some employers would like to hire and some don't, one sector is hurting really bad for sure, but how would you know if the regulatory burden is helping or getting in the way? Do you talk to a lot of employers? Do you ask them this very question?

Likewise with the big regulatory changes that are coming down the pipeline (especially relating to health and the environment), if you agree that entrepreneurs try to plan ahead for the long-run, then wouldn't their expectations in such matters count for something? Again, I don't know how you would empirically measure expectations. These are not simple questions. But how can you be so sure of what businesses want or cannot do?

Another item I also forgot to mention is that many state construction projects were put on hold, waiting for possible stimulous money.

Quoting ohreally: Classic Miles quote. I love Zoot. His outing with Count Basie on, yes, the organ (Fats Waller taught him) is priceless.

Charlie Christian would play at Minton's all night after gigging with Benny Goodman in the evening to pay the rent. That trip to Harlem was a fast-forward leap of a decade: not just the half diminished runs, but the rhythm. Listen to Kenny Clarke's right-hand time keeping on the ride while delivering his off-beat bombs. And Christian is so natural about it, popping in in mid-measure as a good bebopper would. Which reminds me of a great anecdote when Bird was playing in McShann's band in Kansas City and the bassist was trying desperately to follow him: "Just walk your bass as though the guy didn't exist!" Best definition of bebop I've ever heard.

Thanks, I will look for that Sims/Basie recording. Re: Minton's, you might find this article of interest. With respect to Kenny Clarke's playing, see p. 200. (Okay, I wrote the article.) [added] I managed to dig up Basie & Zoot doing "Paper Moon" from that album on YouTube. Very nice! (And speaking of drummers, that Louis Bellson was a mo'fo'!)

Hey LeDocs are you trying to take away my gig?! As someone who was lucky enough to meet Bob (which was VERY cool) I can honestly say, you need to raise your rate (aim higher)

I lived through the Carter years. At the time, the end of the US was widely predicted, stagflation was expected to continue forever, and queuing to buy stuff was the wave of the future. No! Honestly! We had the mullahs doing their thing in Tehran and the best Jimmah could do was to arrange Desert One. Added together the unemployment rate and the rate of inflation were expected to remain at 20%-plus, forever. Various doomsayers were predicting Global Cooling (yes, COOLING), the end of oil, and famines due to overpopulation. Let me tell you, Jimmah was inspiring all sorts of apocalyptic thoughts. So, now we have Jimmah II, and similar apocalyptic thoughts. Well, here's the deal: We fire Jimmah II and the rest of his socialist crew, elect a Republican like Ronaldus Magnus, repeal all the socialist grabs Jimmah II has made on the economy, and then sit back to enjoy another decade or two of high job-growth, low inflation, and happiness.

That's an interesting reading of history you've got there.

Quoting Don Zeko: That's an interesting reading of history you've got there.

Well, let's face it, at the root of Jimmah II's problems lies an erosion of public trust in his competence and his credibility. People don't believe much of what he says any more, even when they agree with his agenda. The teleprompted “hope and change” banalities have made him a caricature, and his empty gestures are fooling nobody these days. Mind you, appointing a bunch of tax-dodgers to high office didn't help him either. And Smartass, I mean, what was he thinking? $800 billion to do what? Keep unemployment from hitting 10%? Well, it's there anyway, and when you factor in those who have simply given up, real unemployment is at more like 20%. Nobody wants to hire because nobody knows what sort of a swingeing turn Jimmah II and his happy buccaneers in the US Congress will take next. Say what you will about Ronaldus Magnus, at least he didn't dispatch flying monkeys to tell the world we'd no longer be its economic engine. He recognized American exceptionalism, unlike Jimmah II who sees the US through internationally-tinted glasses. Jimmah II is a prescription for accelerated decrepitude. The sooner he joins Jimmah on the

Quoting PatThePirate: Well, let's face it, at the root of Jimmah II's problems lies an erosion of public trust in his competence and his credibility. People don't believe much of what he says any more, even when they agree with his agenda. The teleprompted “hope and change” banalities have made him a caricature, and his empty gestures are fooling nobody these days.

Mind you, appointing a bunch of tax-dodgers to high office didn't help him either. And Smartass, I mean, what was he thinking?

$800 billion to do what? Keep unemployment from hitting 10%? Well, it's there anyway, and when you factor in those who have simply given up, real unemployment is at more like 20%.

Nobody wants to hire because nobody knows what sort of a swingeing turn Jimmah II and his happy buccaneers in the US Congress will take next.

Say what you will about Ronaldus Magnus, at least he didn't dispatch flying monkeys to tell the world we'd no longer be its economic engine. He recognized American exceptionalism, unlike Jimmah II who sees the US through internationally-tinted glasses.

Jimmah II is a prescription for accelerated decrepitude. The sooner he joins Jimmah on the trash heap of history, the better for all of

Quoting ohreally: Kirk was amazing!!! He could play the meanest blues I've heard.

This almost seems like Klezmer at times, but I think it hints nicely at what you're talking about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyxLKEXS9E0 This is the guy (for anyone who might be interested) from whom Lester Bangs accused Ian Anderson of copying his entire flute style. (And it's not entirely untrue.)

Hey, I love ELO. Speaking of prog-rock musical excess, I have just been recently discovering the early works of the Tubes. I never realized how crazy they used to get.

How. exactly, was that actually responsive? You, sir or madam, have beclowned yourself. Good day.

Quoting PatThePirate: How. exactly, was that actually responsive?

You, sir or madam, have beclowned yourself.

Good day.

It wasn't responsive. I freely admit to an advanced state of beclownment. But, what I said still needs to be addressed, if you expect any significant minority of people here (or anywhere else you try that line of bullshit) that you should be taken seriously. Try an argument.

BTW, love the way you don't have to ask who "Jimmah II" might be. I'm having the sad experience of seeing a second failed Presidency in my lifetime. Last time I was living in Ireland. My dad had retired there with my (Irish) mother after 20+ years in the US military. The kids in the village used to enjoy waving postcards in my face that showed Uncle Sam bent over and being sodomized by a stereotypical-looking Arab. As an American, it was a humiliating experience. This was the late 1970s. I can remember, while getting a haircut in Galway, listening to a contractor who'd barely made it out of Tehran - gunfire at the aircraft on the runway - describing how Iran had fallen apart after Jimmah backstabbed the Shah. I'm seeing another failed Presidency unfold. I don't know where the major blow will come from, but coming it is. The Won, Jimmah II, caught the Presidency the way the dog caught the car: Now he's got it, he doesn't know what the hell to do with it. God help us in the next two years or so. God forbid the legacy be as bad as Jimmah's.

Huh. I don't think I understand your terms of engagement. I think what you're saying is that history hasn't treated you well, so you wish not to consider it. But you tell me.

Quoting PatThePirate: BTW, love the way you don't have to ask who "Jimmah II" might be...

Seriously? You think you invented the Obama is Carter II trope?

Quoting PatThePirate: Huh. I don't think I understand your terms of engagement. I think what you're saying is that history hasn't treated you well, so you wish not to consider it. But you tell me.

I haven't made a political assertion yet in this conversation.

Dear Lord, no! Heaven forfend I should be so creative. I just love the way it's out there enough that everyone recognizes The Won Who Has Been Promised Us At This Time, The Payor of Peggy Joseph's Mortgage and Gasoline Bill, King Barack Hussein Canute Obama I, Healer of Planets, Reducer of Oceans, as Jimmy Carter II.

You know, you're right! All you're done is unilaterally declare how a person must act in order to be taken seriously by all here. To which, well, who appointed you God, etc? Since you've yet to act as a serious person, I will engage you in jest, and unseriously (it that's an actual word, though I'm sure you take the point). I look forward to the future.

Quoting PatThePirate: Dear Lord, no! Heaven forfend I should be so creative.

I just love the way it's out there enough that everyone recognizes The Won Who Has Been Promised Us At This Time, The Payor of Peggy Joseph's Mortgage and Gasoline Bill, King Barack Hussein Canute Obama I, Healer of Planets, Reducer of Oceans, as Jimmy Carter II.

Btw, I like your sig. But, you do seem to like the sound of your own voice. (Or however that metaphor might be translated into a text medium.) I think everybody gets it. "The Emperor has no clothes!" Oh Noes! "What an empty suit DA ONE is!" I'll ask again. Got an argument?

Quoting PatThePirate: You know, you're right! All you're done is unilaterally declare how a person must act in order to be taken seriously by all here.

To which, well, who appointed you God, etc?

Since you've yet to act as a serious person, I will engage you in jest, and unseriously (it that's an actual word, though I'm sure you take the point).

I look forward to the future.

Unilaterally? This game is simple. It even has a name you may have heard once or twice even before you ever arrived here. We like snark here, we really do. But if you can't actually argue a point, what good are you? I'm guessing you're intelligent enough to understand exactly how badly I need you to take me seriously.

Quoting AemJeff: Btw, I like your sig. But, you do seem to like the sound of your own voice. (Or however that metaphor might be translated into a text medium.) I think everybody gets it. "The Emperor has no clothes!" Oh Noes! "What an empty suit DA ONE is!" I'll ask again. Got an argument?

I don't quite know how to engage you. My point, if I am to have one, is that Ms. Lowery expressed herself as negative about job growth in the US, for the long term. My response was to remark that I've seen all this before, that it's generally a result of a crisis of leadership, and that things will get better once the current political regime has been shrugged off, and a better one shrugged on. Perhaps I should apologize for putting my remarks too closely in terms of the current regime, but what else have we to go with? The last regime is almost two years gone, and the current regime has nothing but "The last regime steered us into the tar pits." The point I wanted to make is I have seen all this before. The same prognosticators telling us we're going to see doom and gloom forever, and the next

I have sincerely tried to answer you below - in the parallel thread.

Dave Weigel on Fox News' racist appeal. (h/t bjkeefe)

Quoting PatThePirate: I don't quite know how to engage you.

My point, if I am to have one, is that Ms. Lowery expressed herself as negative about job growth in the US, for the long term. My response was to remark that I've seen all this before, that it's generally a result of a crisis of leadership, and that things will get better once the current political regime has been shrugged off, and a better one shrugged on.

Perhaps I should apologize for putting my remarks too closely in terms of the current regime, but what else have we to go with? The last regime is almost two years gone, and the current regime has nothing but "The last regime steered us into the tar pits."

The point I wanted to make is I have seen all this before. The same prognosticators telling us we're going to see doom and gloom forever, and the next thing you know everything changes for the better.

I suppose that's my argument, if I am to have one: My experience of life contradicts Ms. Lowery's assertions.

Does that help?

A little. Assertions like "The last regime is almost two years gone, and the current regime has nothing but

BTW, I will also tell you: I came over to the US to work in the summer of 1980, I think it was, to earn money for pints, and fags (cigarettes, dammit!), and books the next academic year at UCG in Galway. Returned to Ireland, people would ask me "Who'll win the (US) Presidency?" I responded "Reagan, in a landslide!" They couldn't believe it, so pro-Carter were the media outlets in Europe. Nonetheless, Reagan won. That's something else to look out for here: The mood in the country is MASSIVELY anti-Obama, and anti-Democrat, and it's completely ignored by the media. This November we're going to see a media claiming to be gobsmacked by results they knew were on the way. I see this as worrying for a free country: A fourth estate so in the tank, it refuses to report honestly. This is not a good thing. I apologize if this is not coherent. I am tired.

Oh, so now I engage, you simply fob me off? Forgive me, but I feel a bit put down. (FYI, I deleted a bunch of things like "arrogant asshole" from my original response.)

Quoting PatThePirate: Oh, so now I engage, you simply fob me off?

Forgive me, but I feel a bit put down.

(FYI, I deleted a bunch of things like "arrogant asshole" from my original response.)

That wasn't a "fob off." It was an answer to a question and a challenge. Can you argue the merits? Yes? No? And it's past my bedtime. Btw, you'll find a fair contingent here who will back you up on "arrogant asshole." But you shouldn't brag about such things.

You get into deficits by spending. If you think tax cuts are spending, then you believe all the productive effort of the country belongs to government, and so are an unspeakable piece of communist scum. The current bank crisis started with Jimmah's Community Reinvestment Act, as extended by Bill the Philanderer, and perfected by Barney the Pouffy Whoremonger. Oddly enough, Jamie Gorelick, the women who made 9/11 possible as part of the Clinton Administration, went on to enrich herself further, and further bugger the country, by serving under (but not "under", as it were) Barney Frank at FNMA. The one bit of foreign policy anyone's gotten right in the last decade is to put the fear of God, or at least Predator drones, into our enemies. GWB started it, and GHO has had the good sense to follow the example.

Quoting PatThePirate: You get into deficits by spending. If you think tax cuts are spending, then you believe all the productive effort of the country belongs to government, and so are an unspeakable piece of communist scum.

The current bank crisis started with Jimmah's Community Reinvestment Act, as extended by Bill the Philanderer, and perfected by Barney the Pouffy Whoremonger. Oddly enough, Jamie Gorelick, the women who made 9/11 possible as part of the Clinton Administration, went on to enrich herself further, and further bugger the country, by serving under (but not "under", as it were) Barney Frank at FNMA.

The one bit of foreign policy anyone's gotten right in the last decade is to put the fear of God, or at least Predator drones, into our enemies. GWB started it, and GHO has had the good sense to follow the example.

You get into deficits by unbalancing income and spending. Idiot comments like "If you think tax cuts are spending, then you believe all the productive effort of the country belongs to government, and so are an unspeakable piece of communist scum" make you look stupid. Avoid them. You seem infected by an excess of partisanship unfortunately substituting for thought. Invoking

Quoting PatThePirate: My point, if I am to have one, is that Ms. Lowery expressed herself as negative about job growth in the US, for the long term. My response was to remark that I've seen all this before, that it's generally a result of a crisis of leadership, and that things will get better once the current political regime has been shrugged off, and a better one shrugged on.

Wow. I haven't seen devotion to the Cult of the Presidency that brazen in quite some time. PatThePirate, I think you have a future in journalism.

Please explain that, for those of us less learned than yourself.

A bit of that made no sense. Sorry.

"Blah, blah, blah." "I don't feel like engaging so I'll throw out a bit of racism chum." "Blah, blah, blah."
You do get lazy.

You were asserting that the reason for our economic woes in the late 1970's and today was the same in both cases: ineffective presidential leadership. This attributes power over the economy to the President that the office does not and never has possessed (although every president wishes he had this kind of ability to influence events). While the President probably has more personal influence on the economy than anybody else in the country except for the chair of the Federal Reserve, the idea that the occupant of the White House, rather than a host of far less subjective inputs, is what determines economic performance is idiotic, and is also a common view in the Washington press corps, if the "analysis" articles I read are any indication.

Oh come the fuck on! In my life I remember Kennedy,
Johnson,
Nixon,
Ford,
Carter,
Reagan,
Bush (I),
Clinton,
Bush (II),
Obama You can *not* convince me that their comments and actions did not MASSIVELY affect the economy.

Whether or not I can convince you says little about the truth of the matter.

Quoting PatThePirate: Oh come the fuck on!

In my life I remember

Kennedy,
Johnson,
Nixon,
Ford,
Carter,
Reagan,
Bush (I),
Clinton,
Bush (II),
Obama

You can *not* convince me that their comments and actions did not MASSIVELY affect the economy.

In fact! Obama's influence over the economy is so vast and powerful that the economy collapsed before he even became president! Suck on that, libtards!

Quoting Don Zeko: You were asserting that the reason for our economic woes in the late 1970's and today was the same in both cases: ineffective presidential leadership. This attributes power over the economy to the President that the office does not and never has possessed (although every president wishes he had this kind of ability to influence events). While the President probably has more personal influence on the economy than anybody else in the country except for the chair of the Federal Reserve, the idea that the occupant of the White House, rather than a host of far less subjective inputs, is what determines economic performance is idiotic, and is also a common view in the Washington press corps, if the "analysis" articles I read are any indication.

So................You agree with me. And, I'm stupid. Sorry, but I'm trying to locate the point lurking in the dense undergrowth of you prose.

That's not quite how I remember it, but, OK. And...thanks.
(BTW, there's a guy up above in the hierarchy who keeps track about what's useful/acceptable dialogue. Pray he doesn't visit you.)

I suppose I shouldn't be bothered with you either, ya little gobshite.

Quoting TwinSwords: In fact! Obama's influence over the economy is so vast and powerful that the economy collapsed before he even became president!

Suck on that, libtards!

Well, The Won Who Has Been Promised Us at this Time did campaign for two years on how bad things were. Then, in his first year we got an $1.8 TRILLION budget deficit, and we're now getting a $1.8 TRILLION budget deficit this year, So, you know, WHERE DO THE DEMOCRATS END?????????????? WE COST MORE!!!!!!
Here's the Republican slogan, this year: WE COST LESS!!!!

Quoting PatThePirate: Here's the Republican slogan, this year: WE COST LESS!!!!

No, you don't.

Quoting PatThePirate: BTW, I will also tell you: I came over to the US to work in the summer of 1980, I think it was, to earn money for pints, and fags (cigarettes, dammit!), and books the next academic year at UCG in Galway.

Returned to Ireland, people would ask me "Who'll win the (US) Presidency?" I responded "Reagan, in a landslide!" They couldn't believe it, so pro-Carter were the media outlets in Europe. Nonetheless, Reagan won.

That's something else to look out for here: The mood in the country is MASSIVELY anti-Obama, and anti-Democrat, and it's completely ignored by the media. This November we're going to see a media claiming to be gobsmacked by results they knew were on the way.

I see this as worrying for a free country: A fourth estate so in the tank, it refuses to report honestly. This is not a good thing.

I apologize if this is not coherent. I am tired.

Would have loved to jump in with you here but it was only 4 against 1 and thus the odds were still in your favor. One side to Jeff. I wonder if someday an argument will spring out of YOUR pointed finger.

Quoting Whatfur: Would have loved to jump in with you here but it was only 4 against 1 and thus the odds were still in your favor.

One side to Jeff. I wonder if someday an argument will spring out of YOUR pointed finger.

How would you know if it had?

Quoting uncle ebeneezer: Hey, I love ELO.

Hey, no prob. If it sounds good, it is good, as the Duke said. But if one is going to describe a pleasure as a guilty pleasure, then from my perspective at least, there's less shame in liking (having liked) ELP.

Speaking of prog-rock musical excess, I have just been recently discovering the early works of the Tubes. I never realized how crazy they used to get.

Okay, I take it back. BAN HIM. I never could get past their pretentiousness, for some reason. Probably got my first exposure at the exact wrong age. (When I was a pretentious teen, I mean. (I'm a lot older now.))

Quoting AemJeff: How would you know if it had?

Because your head would probably explode.

Quoting Whatfur: Because your head would probably explode.

'fur, you're so good at this!

Quoting PatThePirate: You know, you're right! All you're done is unilaterally declare how a person must act in order to be taken seriously by all here.

To which, well, who appointed you God, etc?

Calm yourself. And realize that as a new member of the community, you should probably resist the temptation to attribute motives to people you haven't much interacted with. What Jeff was doing was making an observation of reality, not dictating. Believe it or not, everything you've typed so far in this thread reads to pretty much all of us here, left or right, like boilerplate. Typing it harder isn't going to impress anyone, although you'll probably get a pat or two on the back from your fellow travelers. If all you want to do is act like another member of the RedState Trike Force, here to talk smack to the libruls, go for it. We love fresh targets for snark, and you'll probably even make a friend or two, to boot. But if you actually want to have any sort of substantive discussion or debate, recognize that you are in a place that has some higher standards than you seem used to.

Quoting PatThePirate: BTW, love the way you don't have to ask who "Jimmah II" might be.

Shocking to find a place where people actually possess the ability to read for context and remember something from a few posts ago, is it?

Quoting TwinSwords: In fact! Obama's influence over the economy is so vast and powerful that the economy collapsed before he even became president!

Suck on that, libtards!

Twin wins the thread.

Well ELP was awesome in their prog-rock experimentalism, but I think Jeff Lynne wrote much better songs. Neither one was the kind of thing to brag about with the ladies (if you wanted a snowball's chance of getting laid). It is funny how our own maturity and perspective effects our perception of these things. I never knew the tubes had such a crazy wild, theatrical approach. I woulda hated it as a kid, but as an adult (geez I feel like McMeghan with all the "as a's") I see alot more irony and just good-natured sillyness in it all. Other example's are Zappa and Bowie, both of which I didn't quite "get" but now I do (though I can only take Zappa in smallish doses.)

But seriously, people, I wish everyone would listen at least to "Blues for MF," "O Niccolo," and "Philosopher's Funk" on my blog. There is some jazz harmony in there, and my very charming personality comes to the fore. I had no idea there were so many jazz fans in here. That's cool. I don't know anything about drumming, but I've become much more tolerant of medium-length (up to 5 minute) drum solos in the past ten years. Some names that did not get mentioned: Dejohnette, Billy Hart, Billy Higgins (gone), there are a lot of great drummers out there. I heard a guy named Steve Smith a few years ago here in rural France, he made a lot of money in rock but is really a jazz musician, he blew me away. I later learned that he is regarded as one of the top drummers in the world by polls and so on.

Psquared, I want to second what bj said to you. Your posts suck. Like Roland Kirk was saying, don't bring that shit up here.

Hey LeDocs (and Listener and anyone else): Check out one of my favorite current trios and their amazing (extremely tasteful) drummer. Swinging and groovey/latin-y. And my other favorite currently. Ok, last drum post, I promise

Quoting uncle ebeneezer: Well ELP was awesome in their prog-rock experimentalism, but I think Jeff Lynne wrote much better songs.

That an ELO guy? If so, I agree, in the sense of popular appeal/catchiness. But they never did much more for me than irritate me in the form of earworms.

Neither one was the kind of thing to brag about with the ladies (if you wanted a snowball's chance of getting laid).

Heh. I dunno. One thing about liking ELP is that you could then fake knowledge of and appreciation for Mussorgsky. Which is not to say that I ever tried to represent myself as anything less than completely truthfully when negotiating with the fairer sex. Really, you can trust me on this, babe. No, honest.

It is funny how our own maturity and perspective effects our perception of these things. I never knew the tubes had such a crazy wild, theatrical approach. I woulda hated it as a kid, but as an adult (geez I feel like McMeghan with all the "as a's") I see alot more irony and just good-natured sillyness in it all.

Other example's are Zappa and Bowie, both of which I didn't quite "get" but now I do (though I can only take Zappa in smallish doses.)

Yes, I can

I saw the Mehldau trio playing with Pat Metheny at Marciac two years ago. They played for about 3.5 hours without a real break. The quality was pretty high, too, but I've never seen a marathon set like that, and I may never see that again. I can't even quite fathom how they did that. And I believe I heard Brian Blades playing with Kenny Barron at Marciac. I know I heard him with someone. I actually hear more live jazz in rural France than I did in the Bay Area, but that's another story.

Is "piraeus" a reference to the Athenian harbor, as in, "I went down to the Piraeus yesterday...?" Are you a post-Socratic, or just someone with a funny name, another right-wing lawyer in a Red State? Did you go to St. John's College?

Quoting PatThePirate: Well, The Won Who Has Been Promised Us at this Time did campaign for two years on how bad things were. Then, in his first year we got an $1.8 TRILLION budget deficit, and we're now getting a $1.8 TRILLION budget deficit this year,

So, you know, WHERE DO THE DEMOCRATS END?????????????? WE COST MORE!!!!!!

Here's the Republican slogan, this year: WE COST LESS!!!!

Welcome PatThePirate, I am the barnacle on Whatfur's ass, and I was just about to advise him not to scratch it when he's wearing his sock puppet or the libtards would be able to smell it from a mile off.
But then I saw your signature and realized that you have a good and clever sense of humor, so another slightly paranoid theory goes up in smoke. Ya gotta admit though, right after I pummel his nautical metaphor, PatThePirate appears, and has an exchange with Jeff that is strikingly familiar.
Hey 'fur, did your dad ever visit Ireland?
Anyway, sorry for my suspicions, and like I said, Welcome!

Quoting TwinSwords: In fact! Obama's influence over the economy is so vast and powerful that the economy collapsed before he even became president!

Suck on that, libtards!

Well not Obama so much, but the libtards do keep forgetting that they have been in control of the money since 2006.

Quoting Whatfur: Well not Obama so much, but the libtards do keep forgetting that they have been in control of the money since 2006.

Maybe they are proud of the fact that a major depression has been averted, but probably because Mccain "suspended his campaign" and rushed to the rescue, right? Added: Sorry, didn't read your post carefully enough, you think the government caused the crash right? The old fanny-freddy lie. Any non-furballs still buying this one? If you are talking about deregulation, then you can't hang it on either side IMHO.

Quoting ledocs: Is "piraeus" a reference to the Athenian harbor, as in, "I went down to the Piraeus yesterday...?" Are you a post-Socratic, or just someone with a funny name, another right-wing lawyer in a Red State? Did you go to St. John's College?

Wow, I didn't know I was so easy to figure out. It is indeed a reference to that very line from the Republic. And I am a right-wing lawyer from a Red State. I did not go to St. John's but I did go to a great books school with a heavy emphasis on Straussianism.

Well, we do need a much higher class of right-winger in here, as I can be heard to say often. Let's hope you're it. But no pressure. Just spend a few days reading the posts of your ideological confreres, and you will perhaps see what I mean. Do you know about the sort of anti-Straussian book by Anne Norton? I read most of it. It's not great, but it's also not bad, and it contains some interesting gossip. I should finish it.

Piraeus, I owe you an apology. I was just thinking about something that happened to me in grad school that is all too reminiscent of what I just said to you. This story might mean something to you. I was a grad student in Classics at Berkeley, but with an emphasis in Greek philosophy. Gregory Vlastos was teaching a seminar on Plato, I think it was on "The Republic" specifically, in the Philosophy Department, and he was then considered to be the leading figure in the field in the United States and a figure of very considerable political clout. I think he was Emeritus, though. I can no longer remember if my intention was to audit his seminar or to enroll in it, I think I intended to enroll. He was looking for a volunteer to make a presentation to the seminar about the Straussian interpretation of "The Republic," so I volunteered. I had read a lot of Strauss, I had studied with a student of Strauss, and so on. But Vlastos says to me, a 23-year-old kid who doesn't even know if he should really be enrolling in courses in the Philosophy Department, because I was way behind in my technical philological skills at

Quoting ledocs: Piraeus, I owe you an apology. I was just thinking about something that happened to me in grad school that is all too reminiscent of what I just said to you.

This story might mean something to you. I was a grad student in Classics at Berkeley, but with an emphasis in Greek philosophy. Gregory Vlastos was teaching a seminar on Plato, I think it was on "The Republic" specifically, in the Philosophy Department, and he was then considered to be the leading figure in the field in the United States and a figure of very considerable political clout. I think he was Emeritus, though. I can no longer remember if my intention was to audit his seminar or to enroll in it, I think I intended to enroll. He was looking for a volunteer to make a presentation to the seminar about the Straussian interpretation of "The Republic," so I volunteered. I had read a lot of Strauss, I had studied with a student of Strauss, and so on. But Vlastos says to me, a 23-year-old kid who doesn't even know if he should really be enrolling in courses in the Philosophy Department, because I was way behind in my technical philological skills at

I think you have misinterpreted what I was trying to say there, bj. I'm sorry about that, but maybe you should read it again. Not that your interpretation is impossible, I mean, maybe I just compounded an error, but I was actually apologizing for what I had said in the prior post. I thought the analogy was pretty clear. I was comparing my behavior to that of someone I did not like and of whose behavior I did not approve, Gregory Vlastos. Also, I indicated that Piraeus and I have at least one common interest, Straussianism. True, I did not say, "Welcome, Piraeus," but that's not my style. Also, I've known a lot of right-wing Straussians, because I've known a lot of Straussians. The "errors of youth" line was a joke, in part. Again, sorry that was lost on you. I'll be interested to read Piraeus's contributions.

Quoting ledocs: I think you have misinterpreted what I was trying to say there, bj. I'm sorry about that, but maybe you should read it again. Not that your interpretation is impossible, I mean, maybe I just compounded an error, but I was actually apologizing for what I had said in the prior post. I thought the analogy was pretty clear. I was comparing my behavior to that of someone I did not like and of whose behavior I did not approve, Gregory Vlastos. Also, I indicated that Piraeus and I have at least one common interest, Straussianism. True, I did not say, "Welcome, Piraeus," but that's not my style. Also, I've known a lot of right-wing Straussians, because I've known a lot of Straussians. The "errors of youth" line was a joke, in part. Again, sorry that was lost on you.

I'll be interested to read Piraeus's contributions.

Ledocs,
Brendan was being sarcastic; he was applauding your discourse-elevating post. BTW: I should have said this when you posted it, but I really appreciate the handful of posts you put up about Marxism and the voluntary nature of employment. Apart from those posts, I hadn't heard those concepts explained so clearly and compellingly since I was an undergraduate learning the same concepts from my sociology professors. Anyway, yeah, Brendan was being sarcastic with the "ban him" comment and

Quoting TwinSwords: Ledocs,
Brendan was being sarcastic; he was applauding your discourse-elevating post.

BTW: I should have said this when you posted it, but I really appreciate the handful of posts you put up about Marxism and the voluntary nature of employment. Apart from those posts, I hadn't heard those concepts explained so clearly and compellingly since I was an undergraduate learning the same concepts from my sociology professors.

Anyway, yeah, Brendan was being sarcastic with the "ban him" comment and really meant to praise your high-minded and bridge-building post. :-)

Thanks, Twin. @ledocs: A backhanded backhanded compliment, in other words. And two backhands make no backhand, if you see what I'm saying. Sorry my love of obscurantism ... uh, obscured things.

OK. I get it now, but it really was opaque to me. It is also always embarrassing when an ironist misses someone else's irony. But this happens to me at home, too. It's worse in public. On the other hand, I guess it's happened to R. Wright at a level above that of the Comments Fora.

Quoting ledocs: OK. I get it now, but it really was opaque to me.

It is also always embarrassing when an ironist misses someone else's irony. But this happens to me at home, too. It's worse in public. On the other hand, I guess it's happened to R. Wright at a level above that of the Comments Fora.

Don't feel too embarrassed. Tone doesn't always carry via plain text. Maybe I should have added a winkie. Oh wait, I did.

Quoting bjkeefe: Way to elevate the discourse, ledocs.

BAN HIM.

.

.... ↑
.... ↑
.... ↑
.... ↑
.... ↑
.... +---- click that dot Maybe I should have added a bigger one. But seriously: no biggie. At least as far as I'm concerned.

To me, it was HUGE, a humiliation from which it will be difficult to recover.

Quoting ledocs: To me, it was HUGE, a humiliation from which it will be difficult to recover.

I have every confidence you will.

I'm an atheist, but I don't see how it was a politically clueless remark. Atheists are even less popular than homosexuals or Muslims. Possibly even homosexual Muslim Yankees fans. We may just be a dislikeable bunch, or the dislikeable among us are the most likely to be explicit about our atheism (I'm a closeted atheist in meatspace, though also an unpleasant person).

Quoting T.G.G.P: I'm an atheist, but I don't see how it was a politically clueless remark. Atheists are even less popular than homosexuals or Muslims. Possibly even homosexual Muslim Yankees fans. We may just be a dislikeable bunch, or the dislikeable among us are the most likely to be explicit about our atheism (I'm a closeted atheist in meatspace, though also an unpleasant person).

I agree that atheist politicians are unpopular, so when I heard Salam I thought, what the hell is he talking about. Mitch Daniels, in all likelihood, made a calculated remark to diffuse criticism he got for his call for "truce on social issues". I wonder if Salam was counting on Mitch Daniels wooing some respect for conservatives and conservative causes among his (Salam's) liberal friends. But, I disagree with you when it comes to professing atheism privately (i.e. among friends and co-workers) in contemporary America. While it depends on circumstances, I think being closeted is neither required nor beneficial for an atheist's social standing.